Value Whispering: How to Market Without Being Pushy, with Melitta Campbell

Speaker 1 (00:03) Welcome to Building Your Leader Brand. Today on the show, Bob is speaking with Melita Campbell. And this is why I call it value whispering. You're really taking that value and you're gently whispering it through every thought, every decision, every action you take in your business. And then you start to naturally stand out to the ideal client because from whatever touchpoint they have with your business, they think and feel the same because you've intentionally set it up that way, but in a very genuine way. Speaker 2 (00:37) Hi there, and welcome to Building Your Leader Brand. My name is Bob Gentle, and every week I speak with incredible people who share their secrets to building, marketing, and monetizing their expertise and the mindset you need for your business to grow and thrive. If you're new, before you get too busy doing whatever it is you're going to do while you're listening to us, take a breath and hit the subscribe or the follow button. And while you've got your device in your hand, you may want to do yourself an extra favour and grab the Personal Brand Business Roadmap. 50 pages of everything you need to start, scale, or fix your expert business. 100% free as a gift from me. Just visit amplifyme.agency/roadmap, or you will find the link. It's very obvious in the show notes. So today I am As always, giddy and excited to welcome somebody that I got to know a little bit for a chat about probably quite a lot of different things, but she's best known for the idea of value whispering. She's written a wonderful book called Value Whispering: The Smarter Way to Market Your Small Business... That Just Happens to Be Brilliant for Introverts. Speaker 2 (01:48) That got my attention. as well as The Shy Girl's Guide to Networking. And this shy girl loves it. Melitta Campbell, welcome to the show. Speaker 1 (01:58) Hi, Bob. It's great to be here. Speaker 2 (02:00) So for the listener who's meeting you for the first time, what do we need to know about Melitta? What is it you do? Where are you? What do you do? Speaker 1 (02:08) So I'm British. You can tell by my accent, but I currently live in Switzerland and I help people around the world, mostly women, partly people who are more introverted or experts who just don't like to be loud and pushy with their marketing. And I help them design a marketing strategy and plan and implement that in a way that works for them. Speaker 2 (02:30) So, as you were speaking, and also every time I glance at the book, I think of a few people that I've met recently. And one of the things that I hear quite often is, I don't like the idea of marketing my personal brand business. And marketing is usually underlined in red by them. And then personal brand, they say the word resentfully because they don't feel that that's them. Now, one of the things I think a lot of introverts in particular, and I think sensitive, emotionally intelligent people who aren't necessarily motivated 100% by money, they do find it a bit gross to think about the idea of a personal brand. And then the active promotion of it just sends them into a mental tailspin. How do you approach that? Speaker 1 (03:27) Yeah. And I think what I'm going to say echoes something that you say a lot, and it's not about pushing yourself out there. It's really about building relationships. And this is something that I see, you know, I'm an introvert. After my first book, A Shy Girl's Guide to Networking, a lot of people in my world are also introverted, but my methods don't only work for introverts, which is, hence, the dot, dot, dot on the book. But it's all about how do you build a relationship with someone? And you don't build it in the instant you meet them. So, a lot of people have experienced, maybe they've gone networking and someone has said, hey, we should work together, here's my business card. And you're like, what? You don't know who I am. I don't know who you are. You know, there's nothing to base a relationship on. So, it's all how do you help people get, the right people to get to know you? And again, this is something that you say a lot, is like, why do they matter for you and why do you matter for them? And when you understand that and the overlap between the two, then you have what I call your value sweet spot. Speaker 1 (04:31) No one else has that same overlap. No one else is doing quite the same business in the same way for the same reasons that you are. And once you uncover that, you can just share that. Your marketing isn't about you. It's about creating that connection with the right people. And I'm going to emphasise that word right all the time, because this isn't about just working with anyone, but really working with those people that you can have the most impact for and that you're going to really enjoy the process of working with. I think anyone who's been in business for a little while has had some of those clients who are a bit of a pain in the backside, and they don't just— they're just not in your calendar and you dread showing up for them. You know, they cause you doubt, they cause you to work harder than you should, and they take your time and energy away from those clients that you could be helping brilliantly. So, it's really about finding those right clients and then How do you start that relationship, and how do you deepen that over time? Because everyone that comes in your world is a person of interest, and it's kind of the game is to find out in which way are they interesting. Speaker 1 (05:37) And honestly, some aren't, they're really boring for you, but some will be friends or colleagues. Some may be people who will refer and recommend you. Some may become clients, but you can't assume that they're all going to become a client. We have to break down that process a little bit more. And I think once we see it as a process and we map things to how do we want people to think, feel, and do about us at any one time, and what we want them to believe about us, believe about them and their situation and their ability to get results, then we break that process down and map everything to that. It just becomes a really nice journey and smooth path for people to follow rather than Squeezing them through a funnel. Speaker 2 (06:23) So I also, I really dislike the idea of funnel. It feels manipulative and mechanistic. And I understand that the concept is important in order to see results, but I think the precursor to all of this is the why. And I think this is where a lot of people get stuck. One of the things that you spoke about there was the right fit. And a lot of people have some misconceptions about marketing and what it's actually for. They think it's about more a lot of the time, but sometimes it's just about refinement. And one of the things you mentioned there was mapping to the feelings that you want people to have. Speaker 1 (07:07) Mm-hmm. Speaker 2 (07:08) And that, that's both potential referral partners and customers. Can you maybe speak to how we can approach that Mapping. Speaker 1 (07:18) So, the basic questions are, how do you want people to think about, and it's not just about you, but about them, their situation, you and your offer. So, what do they need to think about those 4 areas for them to think, yes, I wanna get to know this person a little bit more. What do you want them to feel? And what do you want them to do? And what do you want them to believe? So, those are the 4 It's almost a kind of grid, and then you're going to map out for each stage. So, when they first meet you, what do they need to think, feel, and do to get to that, or believe to get to the next stage? And for some people, they'll need to see you quite a lot before they feel ready for the next stage. Some may skip 1, 2, or 3 stages in one meeting. So, for each client, it's going to be different. But if you kind of map map it out and slow it down, you can start thinking more intentionally, well, what am I doing to help them feel that way? Because this isn't about manipulating them, but if your clients don't know that you can help them, and they don't know how you can help them, and they don't trust you or believe that you're the right person, you're not going to be able to help them. Speaker 1 (08:28) And ultimately, every expert wants that. Sometimes they shy away from The process of getting clients that they think is a process because it feels pushy or manipulative in some way. So, they'll deflect and they'll get another MBA, or they'll go and get another certification, or they'll like, oh, I'll just do this other thing and polish up my website. But it's all distracting from that process that you were already exactly the person that your ideal clients need. So, we just need to understand that. And I think the more you work on that early stage where you understand who you are, who your ideal clients are, and how you're uniquely placed to help them, the easier it is to go through that process confidently, knowing that it's not about you, it's about how you can help more people. So, if you break— usually there's about between 3 and 5 steps in that process. You can break it down smaller, but I think that's usually— that just gets overcomplicated and opens the door to overthinking, which I think most experts and small business owners are brilliant at. So, we wanna minimise that as much as possible and make it simple, but just really intentionally think, okay, this is what they need to think first in order to get to that next stage, because someone who's only just meeting you for the first time isn't gonna be ready to have a sales call. Speaker 1 (09:54) anytime soon unless they come into your world at that magic moment where they're really, really looking for you. But often there's a few more steps between. Speaker 2 (10:03) I think you can get very lucky that people just stumble into your world and it's the right person, right place, right time. But, and I think that the more you play, the better, the more frequently that can happen. And I think a lot of people build their marketing strategy around that particular element of luck. Which, if you're trying to recreate somebody's results that's been in the game for a long, long time, they've earned a different style of luck. There's more working for them. What I really liked about what you described there is a lot of people, when they want more effective marketing, they start thinking about more, more, greater surface area. what you described there is really dialling back the noise so there's a clearer signal and being really intentional about the key messaging. Key messaging is perhaps one of these loaded words that I think everybody has their own perspective on what it means. Signal is probably a more useful term here. It's what signals are you sending to stimulate The feelings and thoughts that you want to cultivate, the assumptions that you want people to make about you. What I find fascinating is we make assumptions about each other all the time, but most people take no responsibility for the assumptions other people are making. Speaker 2 (11:30) So if your marketing is very noisy, there's very little control that you have over what people are picking up on. Whereas if you're very intentional and deliberate, essentially value whispering. Wow, where'd that come from? You will be more effective. There's 2 phenomena I think are quite interesting here. Number one is confirmation bias. When we first experience somebody, within less than a second, we've made some very concrete assumptions about who that person is. Speaker 1 (12:04) Yeah. Speaker 2 (12:04) And we can take a degree of control over that. But what I find fascinating is the long-term effect of content. And this podcast is not about me, but this is to reinforce everything you're saying for the listener. I met a guy about 20 years ago. He invited me in to quote for his website, and he made no secret of the fact that he didn't like me, and I was only there because his board wanted a third quote. And I think he felt no consequences over having basically wasting my time. And I had several encounters with him subsequent to that where, again, it was very apparent he did not rate me at all. 15 years later, I get an email. Bob, Bob, buddy, you're the only person who can help me. I've always admired what you're doing, and I think I need a call. And I thought, this is really weird. I know you don't like me. I got on the call, and he was behaving like I was his best friend. And what I realised at that point is memory's not what we think it is, but through repeated exposure to very specific messaging that was generally delivered on the carrier wave of trying to cultivate very intentional emotional reactions, he had reprogrammed who he saw me as. Speaker 2 (13:21) He'd quite literally lived in a different reality of our relationship because of that repeated exposure. And I think this really illustrates the impact of value whispering over time. But it doesn't have to take 20 years. He went from one extreme opinion of me to a different extreme opinion of me. But you can go from first discovery to, I understand, I'm emotionally engaged, but more importantly, aligned. I think this is the thing. Speaker 1 (13:51) Yeah. Speaker 2 (13:51) We all want more clients, but we want clients where there's alignment. And you mentioned flow. And I think I'd love you to speak to the idea of this value whispering, this level of intentionality, not just to more clients, but the more flow component. Speaker 1 (14:08) Yeah, I think once you understand this value sweet spot where everything about that's unique and special and brilliant about you, and this is where I see people get stuck because they don't go into enough depth. and appreciation of the skills that they have, and everything they've learned the hard way. And often, we've really struggled through something, and so, we don't necessarily see that as something valuable, that end goal, because it was so hard for us, but that absolutely is something brilliant. So, there's a lot in that, and we want to do the same for the client. Where those two overlap, that doesn't just then inform your marketing and your messaging. It informs every decision you make. And this is why I call, like, value whispering. You're really taking that value and you're gently whispering it through every thought, every decision, every action you take in your business. And then you start to naturally stand out to the ideal client, because from whatever touchpoint they have with your business, they think and feel the same because you've intentionally set it up that way. but in a very genuine way. So, a few years ago, LinkedIn named me one of the 15 most authentic contributors across the entire platform, which annoyed a lot of LinkedIn experts. Speaker 1 (15:30) But the thing is, I'm not consistent. I'm not posting every day. I very rarely do videos. I'm very envious of your videos. You're brilliant at that. But I find them quite intensive, and so, I just don't do them. I'm not doing fancy things like polls and carousel. I do these when it feels like the right time, but I'm always coming from the same space. I'm always trying to add value. I know what I mean to my clients, and I know what I want to mean to them. And I think that intentionality compounds and stood out to LinkedIn, and to my clients, and to people that invite me to podcasts, and to summits, and all sorts of other opportunities that have arisen from this, but they've come out naturally. And they've got that— I learned this in the corporate world, that people have a lot of trust and respect for the work that you do when you're consistent in that value and how you present yourself. Because even if they don't respect or they don't agree with you, they respect that you're consistent. And so few people do that. And that's what really builds that relationship and Every relationship that's meaningful and lasting is based on trust. Speaker 1 (16:42) So, it helps build that as well. So, as you say, you take a bit of time at the beginning to really understand that value sweet spot, but then everything else becomes so much easier. A new opportunity comes up, and it is easy to know if that feels like a good fit for you or not, or if you're willing to take a punt on it and see. It just becomes your framework for everything you do in your business. Speaker 2 (17:08) One of the things I wonder about, particularly for introverts, I think if you're a very outgoing person, there's perhaps less requirement for it. But a lot of people, particularly if they're self-conscious, naturally modest, or Scottish, they don't have an appreciation of their own value to other people. And the world is often not very good at helping us see our strengths. And for me, I find it quite productive to not play a part, but allow myself to step into a role that's comfortable with self-advocating, because it's not something that comes naturally to me. I think the longer I do it, the more the role begins to feel real. But in the beginning, it was really painful. How common do you find that? And where do you draw the line between authenticity and essentially acting? Speaker 1 (18:12) Ooh, I'm going to write that down so I come back to it. Authenticity, acting, because I think there's a really interesting play there. But my whole background, I've always worked in marketing communication. That's small businesses, then large business, then for UN and other large companies. And so, I've looked at it at angle. And what I've seen from, particularly, I did a lot of work coaching and consulting for some of the most influential leaders in the world, felt quite surreal, but anyway. And what I see consistently is no one has ever been taught, how do you communicate? How do you communicate who you are, the benefits of you as a colleague or you as an employee or a business owner? We're never taught that. And all we see is other people doing it really badly, because when people do it well, we don't see it as self-promotion. We just say, oh, there's Bob being Bob, right? But if you are being quite pushy, they're like, oh, that Bob, he's always pushy. So, when— and it's the same with sales. When sales is done right, we don't call it sales. We say, oh, they were so helpful. Speaker 1 (19:22) They took time to understand me. They asked brilliant questions. And it's, Same thing with marketing. What we conceive of these ideas are people doing it badly and in a way that we don't like, and we don't want to be in that, so we don't do anything at all. But I think we need to recognise that when it's done well, self-promotion doesn't feel like self-promotion. It just feels like you being you. And people either love that or they don't like that. They align with it or they don't. So, that's out of your hands. You're gonna attract the right people. And if you're trying to market yourself or promote yourself like anyone else, you're gonna start attracting their clients, not your own. So, being yourself and being okay with that is really, really important, but it doesn't mean you have to be pushy or aggressive. You just have to always be you and standing up for your values, the way that it's meaningful for you to do business, the way that's meaningful for you to help others. And self-promotion isn't you saying, pick me, pick me. It's you saying, do you know what? If you have this issue, this is the way I approach it. Speaker 1 (20:29) This is the way I help people. And as a result, they get this result and feel this way in the process. And then people can say, oh, that's what I'm looking for. Self-promotion isn't about promoting you. It's about promoting the way you help. And that's why we're in business in the first place. I think once you reframe it, it becomes much easier because if people don't know you can help them, you can't because they'll go somewhere to someone else and they may end up with one of those awful pushy people that they're not going to enjoy working with. So, we owe it to them to be visible and present. But this idea of authenticity over acting, I think sometimes, especially as introverts, it can be helpful to to fake it a little bit, to push those boundaries and try on different styles to see if they fit, but not to consistently try and do that. But do that. I know myself, one of the reasons I have a podcast and I go on other podcasts as much as I can is to keep pushing that boundary because I would very happily just sit behind my computer and write blog posts all day, but that's not enough. Speaker 1 (21:37) I need to be interacting with people, And I don't like doing live video, but interacting with a guest or a host on interviews like this, I find much easier and much more comfortable. So, it's a— but I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't tried it. Speaker 2 (21:53) Mm-hmm. Speaker 1 (21:53) And I wouldn't have known that I'm actually amazing at sales if I hadn't tried that. So, you have to try something for a while and find your way of doing it, or if it's important, and if it's something that really just doesn't work for you, like me and live videos on LinkedIn, I'm not going to go there. I just don't feel comfortable doing it. And my business grows without it. So there's a right way for all of us, and we just have to play around to find what that is. Speaker 2 (22:21) So for Melitta's benefit, I have no curtains or blinds on my window at the moment because we're having our windows restored. And my video has just gone outrageously— it's like I'm on a stairway to heaven or something. So we're going to pretend that's not a thing. As you were speaking, I was thinking about people like Gary Vaynerchuk or Alex Hormozi. And I could fake that for a little while, but it would cost me so much energy. And I think a lot of people in the beginning, they see, okay, that marketing like that seems to work. So that's what marketing must look like if you're going to be successful. And that's why we end up with a world of people who look like Gary Vaynerchuk and Alex Hormozi. But what I eventually discovered was if you meet people in the street or you meet people at events and they lean in and they listen to you, it's going to be exactly the same when you build the confidence to share online in the same way that you would in person, that your vibe attracts your tribe. But most people just don't bother to transmit because they're so worried about negative consequences. Speaker 2 (23:31) And for me, that was a problem for a long time. And then I discovered that one-third of people are not going to like me. One-third of people will ignore me, but one-third of people are my people. And if I show up as Alex Hormozi, I'll get Alex Hormozi's people, as you described. But if I relax into me, I'll get my people. And that was really liberating. I think there's a real problem in the world of everybody trying to look the same. And when you relax into being yourself, distinctive comes very, very quickly. And in the beginning, everything is awkward, everything is painful, everything is embarrassing, but you very quickly get desensitised to that. And when you start to see the rewards from it, that's when things get really interesting and you start to think, okay, I can take some risks here, but not Gary Vaynerchuk's risks, my risks, I can perhaps lower the boundaries even more. I can let people in a little further. And what I love about it is when clients actually end up in front of you or people refer you, you know why, and you know it's for the right reasons. Speaker 2 (24:41) And it just creates such a nice environment about your business because everything has flow, which I really enjoy. I don't like stress, although I have plenty of it. But it's nice stress. So I'd be interested to know, obviously having come from a marketing background, moving from the corporate world into the personal brand world, what was difficult about that transition? And when you're working with people who do come from corporate, how do you help them through that transition where they didn't have to worry about personal brand, now they do? Speaker 1 (25:18) I think people should worry about personal brand when they're in corporate, personally. The whole idea of Value of Spring, if you listen to my TED Talk, came from my corporate experience, because I got thrown out of a job interview after 10 minutes, because they accused me of lying, because I kept saying, oh, we did this, and we did that. I thought I was being a good corporate person, They thought I had nothing valuable to share, so I was passing someone else's work off as my own. Speaker 2 (25:48) Cool. Speaker 1 (25:48) So, that was a big kind of eye-opener for me, once I stopped crying about it. But it made me realise I have to own my value. I have to stand up for what I do and why. And if I don't do that, I'm never gonna get another job, and I'm never gonna get anywhere interesting within that role. And I switched. I got my very first, The next interview I went to, I was successful, I got that job, but I maintained that throughout. And even though I wasn't necessarily senior within the organisation, I was working for Lloyds TSB at the time, which was then one of Europe's largest companies, but I was often advising and being invited into projects with the number 2 of the entire bank, with very senior leaders, because I was being myself. And I was proactively putting myself out there, but not in a loud, pushy way. More, I've seen you've said that this is a challenge, and you're doing this, but I think the real opportunity is that. Happy to chat about it. And they were like, great, come on board, let's do this. So, it became, as you say, once you're being yourself, really, really easy. Speaker 1 (26:57) I stood out, I got invited to these incredible things, I got promoted over and over. And in an industry, particularly when I moved to private banking with that company here in Switzerland, in an industry that doesn't always allow space for women, particularly young women who don't have a private banking background even. So, I could see the difference. However, when I started my first business, I burned out with that within 7-ish years because I made perhaps a classic mistake of just going for any client, which is why I'm so passionate about how helping people work with their dream clients and define what success means for them and what that whole is going to look like for them. Because I just said yes to every client. I was doing amazing work for, as I said, some of the top leaders in the world. I was getting paid extremely well, but I wasn't learning, I wasn't growing, I didn't have any time for myself, and I didn't necessarily believe in the work that I was doing for them. So that eventually led to burnout, but I thought I was successful because I had more clients than I could serve and I was charging really high fees. Speaker 1 (28:06) I mean, what else is there? Of course, we know quite a lot else has to come in for that. But then that was the point where I stopped and thought, well, I can't sustain this. What else? What can I do differently? And then I realised, well, I need to find someone that I really care about helping. with my skills, and I need to find someone that really gets— will have the most impact from working with me. And that was— I just saw at that time, a lot of the people in my network were other women who, here in Switzerland, it's quite hard to work once you have children because there's no childcare, or not enough, and not enough soon enough. So, a lot of women start their own business, but while they're amazing at getting results for their clients, very passionate about what they do, They don't know how to structure their business. They don't know how to communicate their value for sure. They don't know about marketing, and they look to what they see. So, they see Gary Vaynerchuk doing certain things, and he says, stay up all night messaging people till 2 in the morning. Speaker 1 (29:08) They're like, oh, well, that must be what I have to do. But they don't see how Bob Gentle is building his business, which is very different because it's all a very different way of doing things. So, I've lost the thread of the question, but hopefully that answered the question. Speaker 2 (29:24) It doesn't matter. It was wonderful to listen to. I think a lot of people think about marketing as a mass thing. And what I love about the personal brand or the leadership brand, as perhaps distinct to a personal brand, is it's not about millions of people. It's really about having a place in the mind of people who matter and finding ways to matter to them. That's really what it boils down to. Speaker 1 (29:54) And it's— a lot of people see marketing and communication as an activity. It's not, it's a process. So, and I think when you understand that, you think differently about how you approach it as well. Speaker 2 (30:06) I think for me, it's also a useful exercise to approach marketing less as marketing, more as an act of service. It makes it less about you and more about other people. But what I do wonder is how you maintain relationships. So there's marketing out on the horizon, but there's lots of people who bubble in close from time to time. And I think there's a broad spectrum of people who have wonderful processes for staying in touch. And I sense you probably have something there. It may or may not be systematised, but I'm curious to know how you maintain relationships once you feel like there is actually a connection. Speaker 1 (30:56) Yeah, I'm not sure I'm always as systematic as I would like to be. I used to be really good. And back in the old days, I had a folder and I had notes on everybody that I met. And the folder had the dividers that said January, February, March, and so on. And I would speak to someone in January, then I'd move them forward in my folder to, is there someone that I wanna speak to in 3 months or 6 months? And I'd move them forward. And then, when I opened the folder, when it got to June, I had a whole list of people to speak to, what I said to them before, what I should ask them about next, the best way to, like, how I was communicating with them. and I would pick up. Since I— I should go back to that, but since I've tried to do things online and with like a Trello board doing the thing, it just didn't work for me. I think I need to go back to my folder. Speaker 2 (31:49) It's a delightfully retro/effective idea. I really like that. Speaker 1 (31:58) Well, this was when my kids were tiny, and I ran my business from that folder, Because I couldn't remember stuff. Actually, now I'm going through perimenopause, I have the same problem. But I also had all my activities were on Post-it notes and they were color-coded. So, pink ones were things that could be done in under 10 minutes. The yellow ones were things that could be done in under 20 minutes. And the green ones were for things that were half an hour or more. And so, if they were napping, I was like, right, I think I've got 10 minutes. I would just grab a 10-minute Post-it note, and do that thing. So, it was all kind of pre-planned, and it would get done, but when exactly, it wasn't really clear. So, it was a very different way of running my business. Obviously, now my kids are teenagers, and I have a bit more space. But I think it's playing around with what works for you is always an interesting activity. And in terms of, I'm quite good at remembering names. So, when I have my, obviously my events I do every month. I have my book, I have my emails. Speaker 1 (33:02) So when people come close enough to actually join my email list, then they get invited to my events. They get to hear about my podcast. They get to see new things that I've produced, like content and tools. They're the first person to get people to get that. And sometimes I have masterclasses I've used for my clients that I gift to my my list, but they don't make it to the wider world. But then, as you say, there's some people who come close, but they don't actually join the party. And then I just notice when they, perhaps they comment on something I've put on LinkedIn, or they show up over on Substack, and then I just send them a personal message, say, it's great to see you over here. How are you doing these days? And then that sparks a little conversation, and then I was like, oh, I'll tell them about my latest thing that they might be interested in, and maybe they are, maybe they're not, and they'll drift off naturally if they're not. So it's not quite as systematic as my old days of my ring binder folder, but a little bit more organic perhaps. Speaker 2 (34:07) It's something I'm paying attention to a lot at the moment because a lot of people spend a lot of time and effort networking, getting to know people, Everything that comes into our world comes in through relationships in one way or another. And we're so profligate with the relationships that we invest in. We put a lot of effort into getting to know people and almost no effort into nurturing those relationships, which is fascinating. I just think there's so much opportunity there. So we need to get into part 2, the 3 things, the Militus amplifiers. These are 3 things listeners can Do, listen to, think about, mental models, favourite podcast, tools, favourite sandwiches or ice cream. There are no rules. So, Melitta Campbell, amplifier number 1. What have you got for us? Speaker 1 (34:55) I've noticed that a lot of your guests really like to share books, and one that's come up quite a lot, which I also love, is StoryBrand. But I would, for anyone who has perhaps listened to a previous guest and read that book and is looking for the next one, my next favourite book on StoryBrand is The Science of Storytelling by Will Storr. And what I love about that is that he goes into the psychology of people, and therefore, why certain stories connect or don't, why certain characters we love and others we don't. And I think if you've read StoryBrand, which is all about your client being the hero of the story, and you're the guide, understanding the psychology of what would make people, that story even more sticky, is really helpful. So, that's a book that I've read a few times. And also, it helps me with just relationships. It really is digging into human psychology. So, that's one that people might enjoy. In terms of, we were talking about getting things done and managing your energy. And so, my second thing would be a tool that I learned Years ago from a coach, which has been just so helpful. Speaker 1 (36:04) And I use it, I share it with my clients the whole time, and I've never heard anyone else talking about it. So, it's the Olympic method of managing your time. So, if you go through your to-do list, generally you have a list and everything is equal on that list. But what you do with the Olympic method is you go through the list and you rank everything as a gold, silver, or bronze level task. So, a bronze-level task is something that just needs to get done. Silver is, it needs a bit more time and attention. And gold is maybe something like a TED Talk, where you really need to take good time, get something done amazingly well, to the best of your ability. And I think when we start ranking our activities in that way, suddenly, we see actually about 80% of our tasks are bronze-level tasks. They just need to get done. And yet, we are treating everything as a gold-level task because anyone listening to the show, I'm sure, is a very high performer. So that has saved me and my clients so much time and energy. So that is a definite amplifier. And the third one is one that I don't think is talked about enough, particularly when we're talking about marketing. Speaker 1 (37:16) And you said yourself you're managing a lot of stress, and stress isn't necessarily bad for us But what's bad for us is when we don't have enough counter-stress. And so, my third thing is what I've noticed over time is that there's a definite link between self-love, self-respect, and self-compassion and success. Because if you don't have that self-compassion, you're always pushing yourself, you're always stressful, you're never letting yourself off the hook, you're beating yourself up over everything, and that's not a conducive way to run a business. And if you don't have that, that self-respect and that self-love, you're not putting the right boundaries in place to allow you to do the things that you need to get done first well, and then have time for everybody else. And before we came on, you were saying about how you manage your time so that you have time to be creative and do what your business needs, and then you have separate time where you can go all in for your clients. And I think the more we understand what we need and give ourselves that, the more we can't help but be successful. So, that would be my third amplifier. Speaker 2 (38:28) This is why I love talking to you. The Science of Storytelling, I'm going to read that book. The Olympic Method, it would be so easy to say, but that's just priority 1, priority 2, priority 3. It's so different. The emotional energy around how you prioritise something like that is completely different. I'm going to have to have a proper look at that. And there was something you said about the self-compassion side of things that really got me. Speaker 1 (38:56) Yes. Speaker 2 (38:57) I was listening to a scientist the other day, and he said, the thing about science is pretty much every idea you have will be wrong. And you have to be okay with that. You have to be better than okay with it. You have to embrace it. And as business owners, we think, well, everything we try has to work. And in life, we think everything has to work. But it's the trying is the thing, not that it all works. And we really beat ourselves up for failing to find traction, failing to have things moving. And we need to celebrate each other and ourselves for the intention and the persistence and the showing up, because there's so much in that. You can't have the one without the other. So I really love that. There's a lot to think about there. If people want a bit of Melita Campbell in their life, if they're interested in your podcast, your book, where can they do that? Speaker 1 (39:55) The easiest place to go is melitacampbell.com, and I hang out mostly on LinkedIn. And if you want a bit of a flavour of the book, you can download the first chapter free at melitacampbell.com/chapter. And I've purposely written that chapter to give you a complete flavour of the whole framework. So that may be enough for you to already start shifting the way that you think about the way you attract clients into your business in a more helpful way and a more sustainable way for you as well. Speaker 2 (40:27) Well, I love the book. It's very well structured. It's almost like a handbook. What I also like about it is a lot of people, if they'd written this book, it would've been that thick and full of fluff. This just gets straight into the meat and potatoes, which I really enjoy. Speaker 1 (40:41) It was 600 pages. We spent a good 6 months editing it down into just what was really going to be helpful and what would help people feel that they're not going through that process on their own. It's not me saying, do this, now do that. It's more like a collaborative experience is how I've tried to write it, at least anyway. Speaker 2 (41:00) Well, I like it a lot. So for you at home listening, hopefully that's been really useful. Thank you so much for spending your time with us. I really appreciate it. Also, the thing I appreciate more than anything is like a 5-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. That's 5, count them like the fingers on your hands. Again, if you've enjoyed this, you will love the Personal Brand Business Roadmap. 50 pages of everything you need to start, scale, and fix your expert business. 100% free as a gift from me. Just visit amplifyme.agency/roadmap. Thanks again for listening. And Melita, thanks for your time. You have been awesome. Speaker 1 (41:34) Thanks, Bob. I've really enjoyed it.